Related article: Property Taxes and the Consent of the Governed

Factually, what are the “CITY OF KEENE” and the “STATE OF NEW HAMPSHIRE”?

I'm just going to give you the answer that I would give to a person. I want to make sure you understand that I don't represent the Attorney General for the State of New Hampshire, nor is it my intent to do that. As I understand it, and I've been working in local government for a number of years, we derive our authority from the charter as given to us from the State of New Hampshire, which in essence, controls anything a municipality can say or do. We don't have any authority unless it's expressly granted to us. If the New Hampshire legislature says we may do this or we shall do this or we must do this, then that is we might do if it is discretionary. But unless it is specifically stated in that fashion, we can't take any action that is not granted to us by the State of New Hampshire. New Hampshire, I'm not a Constitutionalist to that extent, but as I understand it, derives its powers from the Federal Government. Certainly to the extent that the Federal Government has control over certain aspects of government...I know we fought a civil war over Confederacies versus things of that nature. It all goes back to colonial days with the State of New Hampshire having a colonial past with the land grants and the powers given to us by a king. That migrated from there into the Constitution and the court cases and the things that have happened since have all evolved to produce a state constitution and laws that they describe through a representative process.

Do the group of men and women calling themselves the “CITY OF KEENE” have “authority” over me, a sovereign individual? If so, what are the origins of and how did you as a member of that group, receive this “authority”?

That's a tough question. I don't think it's that easy in black and white terms. Certainly you have unalienable rights and what we talk in terms of, let's take this issue of paying property taxes. You can't be forced to pay those property taxes. However, there is a penalty if you don't pay them.

Ian: And the penalty is that the people calling themselves the City of Keene will steal my house from me if I don't pay the taxes.

Well we don't like to talk in those terms. We would say that you forced us to take your property. If you don't pay your property tax bill it is the same for me as for you. I own property in the City of Keene, and if I don't pay that property tax bill and it goes into a statutory process and I've been given those opportunities to pay and and don't pay it, then the State has empowered us to go through a process where they take the property. It is a tax sale on the property. In the event that it goes to that, then they have to get fair market for the property at which point any excess above what you owe would go back to you.

Ian: I do understand the tax sale process, but what I am curious about is the obligation. And as I requested, I sent a notarized document to the tax clerk, who responded but did not answer any of the questions, so I sent this follow-up. From what I understand from your rules, from the RSAs, in your rules there is this Uniform Commercial Code document Are you familiar with that? From my understanding the Uniform Commercial Code is this set of general rules that all those who are engaging in commerce must abide by, especially those in government because it's right there codified in your statutes. From my understanding of the Uniform Commercial Code, whenever one presents a bill to another person, that if upon request that person presenting the bill must show proof of authentication. You can't just go pave my driveway and then give me a bill for it, and say, “Well, you owe me $10,000.” I”m going to say, “Well, if that's true, I'll pay it. But you've got to show me where I originally agreed to this. Show that you're not just trying to gyp me and get me to pay for something I never asked for.” So my question to Ms. Alther (the city tax collector) and now to you is: is it possible for you to show my valid original instrument with my signature binding me to some sort of agreement to pay these property taxes; an agreement to abide by that system you were describing.

Do you recall signing that?

Ian: I don't.

OK. I'm not in a position to say what's implied by ownership in this country and in this state or in this municipality. Although I believe there is a contract implied, I'm not an attorney, so I'm not going to talk about the contracts. When we purchase property, whether it is in the City of Keene or any township or any community across the land there has been established as you know that you will pay property taxes. It varies from community to community what the tax rate might be, whether there are other ways of paying that might supplement the cost of government, whether it be education or whether it be the county government or whether it be the city government. From what I know it is implied that when we own property, then we're paying property taxes. That is a system that is deemed to be lawful and is put in place to protect individual rights. What it doesn't give us is the ability to say we won't pay it. But we can do that. There is a penalty prescribed if you don't pay your property tax bill. And it would be the same for you as it would be for me. But have you ever signed anything – not that I'm aware of. But have you come to City Hall or some other place and said that I'm willingly paying my property taxes – I'm not aware of anything like that happening.

Ian: Have you read the Constitution of New Hampshire?

No, in it entirety, I haven't really read the entirety of the Constitution.

Ian: Have you read the beginning of the Constitution? It does say in the first sentence that the government is created by the consent of the governed. Is it possible to withdraw consent?

If there is a process for withdrawing consent from taxation by the government, I'm not aware of what it would be.

Is your government a voluntary association of consenting individuals?

My government? So you don't recognize the government that we live in?

Ian: I recognize individuals and their actions and what they do to other individuals.

OK. But you don't recognize the United States Government?

Ian: I'm not sure what that is. If it's a collection of men and women calling themselves government and then threatening people with violence...

OK. You can see how difficult it is to answer these questions. Is there a government of the United States of America as it is lawfully constituted, yes, I believe there is. Does every citizen of this country read the Constitution? Probably not. As a matter of fact what we find out is that many people don't afford themselves of the opportunity of knowing more about their government and what it is they are consenting to. Now do we have the right to not consent? I suppose that we have that right, and some people are ex patriots for that reason, so they chose to leave and go someplace else. I recognize personally that there is an obligation and that one of the obligations of course is to vote, and to get involved, and to run for government and be a part of a change process. But for some, that may be too slow, or not enough.

Do you believe you have the right to aggress against those who do not consent to your government?

I wouldn't say that we are aggressing. The city obviously can't force people to make a payment on their property taxes, but will get their fair share of the cost of paying for community services. And the way they would do that is to sell the property, if that is what is required.

David: How is that not force? I mean if I don't pay my property taxes I'm not just going to walk out of my house and hand you the keys.

Ian: That leads me right into my next question. If it is possible for the city to sell my property, then who is it that owns my property that I actually believe is mine. I own a piece of property here in Keene. I paid for it. I own it outright, there is no mortgage.

You own that property. There are private property rights in the state of New Hampshire, as I understand it.

Ian: How can it be that if I own that property, the City of Keene can sell that property out from under me without my agreement?

It is a process that has been provided for by the state legislature to provide the revenue necessary to offset the cost for police, fire, education, things of that nature. Not everyone would pay for police, for example, someone would only pay for fire service and would want to absolve himself of other payments. There is a total cost of government and there is a constituency for every aspect of it. It has been determined to be in the common good that these things are paid for. One way, of course, is through property taxes. It is through the common good that the assessment is made and the fact that you don't recognize it as a benefit to yourself apparently – it does not absolve you from having to make that payment. If you don't, then the city would be justified under state law for tax need to sell the property, pay itself that which is necessary to operate the city government, whatever your tax bill is, and deliver you the difference. So it doesn't really need to come to that. If you pay your property taxes, pay your fair share of the cost of the services of this community. And the argument is that you prosper from being in this community, every aspect of being in this community, you prosper from the fact that there is an educational system that brings many people to the point where they can be better citizens and be more productive in their lives.

Ian: I actually mention in my letter here that I am interested in certain services that the city provides. Because the city has a monopoly on those services, there is no other police, no competing police service or competing fire service that I could hire. So I am interested in having some of those services, but there are others like education as you mentioned, that I have a fundamental disagreement with and I am not interested in contributing to that particular system. It doesn't mean that I am not interested in educating children, it just means that I want to give my renters $1000 back, $100 a month and they could use that to educate their daughter in the way they want to. But what I'm hearing from you is that there is some sort of implied obligation that we're all living underneath where someone is going to take my home from me if I don't go along with this, even though I have a fundamental disagreement with is arguably not an essential service at all. Because I'd still be willing to contribute toward educating kids in the way I think it should be done, but I don't have a voice and I'm not interested in spending the time to go through these processes to change the system and mold it in the way I want, mostly because I don't want to force my view onto everyone else. So what I'm concerned with John, is that you're going to come up against a situation where there are going to be more people who are going to be taking a position similar to mine, who will say, “Well yeah, we like fire protection, but these government schools...not so great.” So would you be OK with a check for 40%, considering the government schools are about 60% of the property taxes. Would a 40% check persuade the city to not take my home from me?

Of course the city people do not want your home. The city people are representatives of this community. They are elected from this community and they are elected to do their best of behalf of this community. But they also have to follow the law, and the law governs who participates in the cost of community education, who participates in the cost of city fire and police services.

Video of entire interview